So, when you get back, we’ll have to discuss Saint Catherine…

I understand what you are saying and maybe some day, I will be at the same place as you. However, my usage of the alcoholic example is one I find to be very close in comparison. When you talk with a recovering alcoholic he/she will be devoted to the fact the are still an alcoholic or addict. They have to be, lest they forget where they come from and what they are capable of when they lose focus of where they were and where they are.

I am afraid when we easily call ourselves “saint” with the marriage of our Wesleyan definition of sin, we can lose sight of just how Holy our God is. We have a definition that can lead to someone justifying sinful actions. I don’t view the word as an active tense, but I also have enough awe of the holiness of God that I have to wonder just how short of His perfect thought, perfect love and perfect reaction I can be without knowing it.

My point about the usage of the word is that the word is in use in greetings to others, I don’t have a problem calling you a saint or brother or calling Kathy a super saint or sister. However when it comes to a self descriptive nature, I honestly prefer the word “son” over anything. Saint/sinner has certain pre-conceived definitions associated with them that seem to make them difficult for me. Did you do a search to see how many times saint was used in reference to oneself in scripture?

Please don’t take it as a major disagreement, I personally think this is a great discussion and one I might peek in on while on vacation.

blessings my friend

My word search almost exclusively deals with references from Christians for Christians. But if we hold to the view that the Bible is Divinely inspired, then that usage must have been OK with the Divine Inspirer! And I see no where where God warns us not to think of ourselves as such. He does warn us not to think to highly of ourselves (Romans 12:3), but that is a different context.

I predict more posts on this from me in the very near future. I’m not done putting it all through my new commentaries!

Have a great vacation. We’ll miss you this Sunday.

I am glad to see that your very fine education is not going to waste! And I appreciate the freshness that your experience in studying Wesley brings to the discussion.

I agree with much of what you are saying. But, I am not as far to the side that finds as much therapeutic value in remembering where I came from, lest I get too proud. I rembember the blind man’s response when his parents were afraid to answer about the miracle of healed blindness. It says in John 9:25 — He replied, “Whether he is a sinner or not, I don’t know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!”

Notice the verb tense… was blind and now I see.

And you are absolutely about the lack of duality when it comes to a master to serve.

BTW, see you next week!

It figures you would post on this topic while I am on vacation, nice move, lol.

The one thing that bothers me about how someone views the word “sinner” is that is must equal and active stance of the word. In other words, when I refer to myself as a sinner, I am not using that in an active form. It is descriptive of my nature when I turn away from His perfect will. Just as the recovering alcoholic is always an alcoholic, doesn’t mean he is a practicing one. Why do we fear this word so, when Paul was not afraid to use in to describe himself?

It is interesting that you did a word search on when saint was used to describe others. I would be interested to do the same search and see how many times someone referred to themselves as a saint? I am betting not to many. I think when we refer to each other as saints, it is because of who we see working in each other as a body. I can’t recall if anyone in scripture used the term as a self descript?

I was just reading some from another book by Dan boone, “the seven deadly sins” and he lightly touched on how we probably have no idea just how much sin is in our lives as “unknown” due to the fallen nature of our surroundings. To me, I am a sinner (by nature) seeking to be fully His.

Anyway, I am back to vacation time!

Blessings my friend

Yet on the other side of the coin we are saints and not sinners because we do not live in a “pattern of sin or a devotion to sinning.” as you pointed out and we are in the fellowship of believers.

Yet if you had to push Wesley to one side or the other I believe that that he would say that we are Saints. We are saints because of what God has done for us in Christ Jesus. We are saints because a slave cannot serve two masters. We either hate the one and love the other or love the one or despise the other.

Last year in Collegians Chorale at MVNU we sang that song “Sinner Saved By Grace” and believe it or not I struggled with the fact that we as a school that promotes holiness theology would have our largest choir name it’s tour title the same as that song. All in all I came to view the song in essence saying, I was a sinner and now I have been saved by grace.

At any rate we have a responsibility to respond to that Grace that God has given us and allow him to transform our lives so that we live as saints and not as sinners, no matter what we choose to call ourselves.